I’ve written many wonderful things about Byron Katie. Now it’s time for a critique. I’m seeing some holes in her technique to free us. Here are some problems I see with her teaching:
1. BK proposes we inquire into and see the unreality of all thought and thought-referents (objects in the world). This could have disastrous consequences for humanity. One of the things that make us human is our conscience, our sense of right and wrong. How would we react in the face of evil if we didn’t see it as evil? How can we handle external threats if we deconstructed our beliefs so much that external dangers are not see as “evil” or “dangerous”?
She gives the example of a nazi throwing a baby into a flaming pit. This act she says is God. “God is what-is. And until we can accept our baby being destroyed we cannot come to terms with God, with reality” (Paraphrase from Losing the Moon.)
What kind of power will this leave us with if we all — or many of us — deconstructed our sense of right, wrong, and justice? Imagine a scenario with aliens invading and wiping us out. Would we have the moral fortitude and strength to defeat such an enemy if instantly all of our thoughts were met with “Is this true?.. is this really true?… how do I feel when I believe this thought?…”
How do you think the Muslims swept across the world within 100 years? It was their fundamental beliefs that made them strong; namely that God is with them. This is the same reason that Europe now is committing societal suicide.
2. BK’s epistemology is weak. She assumes nothing exists outside of thought and our immediate senses. While this is experientially true, to say it must be true is a fallacy. Her argument would look something like this:
– We can only experience this now, as it is. Because everything outside of this experience is only thought and cannot be experienced, it must not exist. There’s no way to establish its existence, therefore it doesnt’ exist.
This conclusion doesn’t follow. It assumes that our 5 senses right now in the present moment have access to all of reality. There very well could be a reality outside of our five senses. I’d say you can almost be positive of that such a reality is “out there.”
BK maintains “God is what-is.” Really? Is this true? How do you know? This amounts to an exclusive claim about God, the ultimate reality. Whether you believe in God or not, this claim is still exclusive. Monotheists are often criticized for making exclusive claims. However, nondualists, postmodernists, and others are all in the same boat.
Why is BK so popular? This ought to make anyone suspicious. She wakes up one day completely enlightened and claims to never have been unhappy in 15 or more years? “Is that true?” Doesn’t her story appeal just a little to much to our modern insatiable craving of instant happiness without any effort? You bet it does. And for that reason alone one should be suspicious.
Hi Joe,
Great post. You sum up exactly what bothers me with non-dualism and all these notions I hear of ‘beyond good and evil’ and the like.
Thank you.
Marcus
Caps below:
1. BK proposes we inquire into and see the unreality of all thought and thought-referents (objects in the world). I HAVEN’T COME ACROSS THIS IN YEARS OF LISTENING AND READING. SHE PROPOSES THAT WE INQUIRE INTO STRESSFUL OR PAINFUL THOUGHTS. IT IS THE belief IN THESE PARTICULAR THOUGHTS THAT IS THE SOURCE OF ALL HUMAN SUFFERING. ON A DEEPER LEVEL, YES, WE MAY SEE THAT ALL IS ILLUSION. BUT AS IN BUDDHISM, THIS VIEW INFORMS ONE WITH AN ALTERNATE VIEW THAT INSPIRES COMPASSION FOR OTHERS WHO ARE STILL HYPNOTIZED BY THE TEMPORAL/MATERIALISTIC WORLD VIEW. This could have disastrous consequences for humanity. One of the things that make us human is our conscience, our sense of right and wrong. DO WE ALL SHARE THIS VIEW OF RIGHT AND WRONG? IF SO THEN WHY DON’T WE AGREE AND GET ALONG? How would we react in the face of evil if we didn’t see it as evil? FEARLESSLY? How can we handle external threats if we deconstructed our beliefs so much that external dangers are not see as “evil” or “dangerous”? WITH COMPOSURE, WITH INSIGHT, COMPASSIONATELY?
She gives the example of a nazi throwing a baby into a flaming pit. This act she says is God. “God is what-is. And until we can accept our baby being destroyed we cannot come to terms with God, with reality” (Paraphrase from Losing the Moon.) YOU SAY PARAPHRASE BUT YOU USE QUOTES. I UNDERSTAND THE FEAR AND EMOTIONAL RESPONSE TO THE STATEMENT BUT I THINK WHAT TYPICALLY IS THE OPERATIVE WORD OF OUTRAGE IS “ACCEPT” -AS IF IT WERE A COMMANDMENT. THIS IS SIMPLE. IF YOU’RE ABLE TO ACCEPT IT, YOU DO AND IF YOU’RE NOT YOU DON’T. IF YOU’RE ABLE, YOU’RE ABLE TO LIVE A LIFE THAT MAY SERVE OTHERS WHO AREN’T “THERE” YET. IF YOU’RE NOT, YOU SUFFER A CRIPPLING PAIN THAT MAKES TWO VICTIMS: THE BABY AND YOU.
What kind of power will this leave us with if we all — or many of us — deconstructed our sense of right, wrong, and justice? MAYBE YOU’D BE LIKE BYRON KATIE, HELPING TO END SUFFERING ON A GLOBAL SCALE. Imagine a scenario with aliens invading and wiping us out. Would we have the moral fortitude and strength to defeat such an enemy if instantly all of our thoughts were met with “Is this true?.. is this really true?… how do I feel when I believe this thought?…” JONAS SALK ONCE SAID THAT IF ALL OF LIFE WAS WIPED OUT EXCEPT MANKIND, WE’D BE DEAD IN 50 YEARS, AND IF MANKIND WAS WIPED OUT ALL OTHER LIFE WOULD FLOURISH IN 50 YEARS. WOULD THE ALIENS BE AN ENEMY OF EARTH OR OF MANKIND? DO YOU KNOW WE WOULD SUFFER IF WE QUESTIONED OUR FEARS ABOUT SUCH A SCENARIO? IF WE FEARED SUCH AN INVASION WHAT WOULD WE DO TO PEACEFUL ALIENS?
How do you think the Muslims swept across the world within 100 years? It was their fundamental beliefs that made them strong; namely that God is with them. WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH A WOMAN WHO RECOMMENDS THAT WE QUESTION STRESSFUL BELIEFS AND THOUGHTS? This is the same reason that Europe now is committing societal suicide. ????
I WISH I HAD TIME TO ADDRESS THE REST. IF YOU’RE FEELING ANXIOUS ABOUT THE WORK OF BYRON KATIE I SUGGEST YOU ASK YOUR FEARS TO WAIT A WHILE AND REALLY TRY AND LISTEN CLOSELY. I KNOW IT CAN SEEM VERY RADICAL BUT THEN HOW COULD A SOLUTION TO SUFFERING BE ANYTHING BUT RADICAL?
Hi … thanks for sharing this … it was interesting reading it. I only came across her work a couple of days ago. I must say I found her tone rather cold (i.e. seemingly lacking in compassion) in terms of her interactions with others. There didn’t seem to be much of a sense of her working with how she communicated with other according to their needs … it came across as more her doing what came out of her, regardless of the other persons disposition. I suspected that was symptomatic of having no real sense of the two truths of Dharma, how things appear and how they really are, and therefore no sense of skilful means or compassion. It all seems to be collapsed down into her sense of what is ..
Well, just a first impression, but not as inspiring for me personally as perhaps I’d anticipated ….
Hi Chodpa,
Perhaps this was written for you! I’ve been a BK fan for years, but lately I’ve been bothered by her stark nondual stance. Her “Work” is brilliant in some ways. However, if one builds a worldview upon it, which is what many do, which is what I tried to do, then you run into some problems.
From a Buddhist perspective, she’s locked solidly into the absolute view and (apparently) lives it.
However, epistemologically this position is weak, and the conclusion is unwarranted from the premises.
Hi Marcus,
I knew you’d enjoy this one. My argument against BK works just as well for nondualism.
Byron Katie does wonderful things, encouraging people to examine their thought, not just knee jerk react. For that, the relatively simple methods she uses to help people get their thinking out of the loop, she has my admiration.
Any of the nondualists, it seems to me, have simply taken god a step further and remade the individual as god. If I’m not here, nothing exists, sounds like god to me.
First, there was the dawn of self referential consciousness. That is, there’s a me and there’s this other stuff. Natural events got turned into supernatural events, thunder and lightening, fierce rains, flooding, earthquakes, fires and all the rest of it. We went from placating nature, to placating a god or gods who were responsible. . When we don’t understand scientific rational causes, we make up unscientific irrational ones. It’s called superstition.
This opened the door to shamans, priests, imams, rabbis and the whole crowd of god interpreters, who claimed to have insight into the inner workings of all the inexplicable events. You had to placate the shaman and he would placate the god. Somewhere along the line, people got wary of the priests, but couldn’t dump the god concept. For instance, atheists, who made reason their god, or the nondualists who say what amounts to “I am god, we are all god, everything this is, is god.” some even say “I am beyond god,” ala Nisargadatta.
How does this help anything? It can never be proven or disproven. It strikes me as a way of avoiding, like when the religious pray. they seem to think that prayer fulfills their obligation to help. Just lay the problem off on god, who will do whatever he was going to do anyway. The one who prays gets an endorphin kick and feels better for a while. It gets addictive, so to get more endorphins, they pray more, feel good and think that prayer is the solution to everything. To the extent cocaine is a solution because it feels better temporarily, I guess it is. Prayer is religion’s cocaine.
Byron Katie, when she’s not off in non dualism la la land, actually makes people face themselves in different, more effective way. To do some hard work questioning what we think and it’s veracity. Despite her books and programs, most people will revert back to their comfortable familiar, arguing with their children, their spouses, grousing about their boss, politicians, and despairing over their waistlines.
Why would they do that? Why return to the thing that drove them to Byron Katie’s program in the first place? It’s like this. The pain they create by their normal unquestioned thought eventually gets some relief, after the argument, the frustration, after the anger or despair. There’s another endorphin kick when the pain subsides. If there’s no pain, there’s no endorphin offset. Like the old “I hit myself on the head with a hammer because it feels so good when I quit.”
It’s why addicts of all sorts so often have to get to the abyss, bottom out, before they get serious about behavior change. Ultimately, the pain has to greatly exceed the pain relief, or we go back to the familiar cycle of suffering, a dose of relief, back to suffering.
Here, here! Imo there are definitely problems with Byron Katie and her ‘work”, and it is sooo refreshing to read someone say so. That woman is so pedestalized, it’s gag inducing!
Hi Mimi,
I was an idolizer of Katie for the past 4 years now. However, I’m starting to wake up and smell the coffee! Or is it going back to sleep and dreaming some more? I don’t care. I don’t want to live in a world of nothing and no one. Yet these “there is nothing, there is no one” teachings have become incredibly popular!
Hi Troy,
your portrayal of non-dualism doesn’t really correspond at all with what this points to when used in a Buddhist context. I don’t know enough about other traditions usage of it to comment much. One understanding elsewhere seems to use non-dual to collapse the multiplicity of appearances down into some unified central point almost .. presumably where you get this idea of it somehow reflecting ‘god’ by another name.
In Buddha dharma it points to something to entirely different. What is being pointed as as being non-dual? The relation between how things appear, and how things really are. It’s not that one somehow is behind the other, or below, or prior, or somehow the cause of the other, which other non-dual understandings posit. More that whatever you experience, the same experience has both these aspects, and you cannot separate the two, though both appear to be what they are.
Just trying to give a flavour of what this points to … there’s no-one there in any sense, god or otherwise .. entirely empty, yet appearances appear to arise … inseparable appearances and emptiness.
Either ways …. I’m glad you’ve found Katie’s teachings useful. Long may you do so
hi, it looks like your blog post here is connected to some pretty intense discussion about Mrs. Katie at this other website.
they link to your blog on the next page, but it looks like the nazi stuff about the book Losing The Moon starts at this link in the middle of the page.
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,12906,58218#msg-58218
there is a huge thread there all about katie.
Hi Joe,
I became disenchanted with Katie when I realized she does not question thoughts that we call “positive”. Your thoughts that make you feel good are just as untrue as the ones that cause you unhappiness. This is taught by Charlotte Joko Beck and other Zen folks. One of my favorite teachings of Joko is that joy is what is, minus our opinion of it.
Somebody show me an example where Katie has done The Work to dismantle a positive thought or belief, even something as simple as “I am a good person”. Ask the four questions, do a turnaround on this one! One of the deceits of the process is what she asks how do you react when you think that thought. If it’s a thought that makes you feel good, or special, then why question it? She really does NOT want you to question your thoughts, just select ones to manipulate people and increase attachment to ego. The bigger the ego the easier to con.
Hi Zentient,
I’m not sure why that’s a critique of Katie. Joko doesn’t tell you to dismantle positive thoughts either. I’ve never heard her say anything about that. The problem IS negative thoughts which create stress. If we all had positive thoughts all the time, there would be no need for any of this spiritual stuff.
I don’t think she’s trying to manipulate people. There’s some real paranoid nonsense going on at that Rick Ross site. I don’t see her as some kind of manipulative cult-leader. The problem is people having negative thoughts and suffering because of them.
The point of my post was to poke holes in her view and expose her assumptions and to see see what people thought of my analysis. Hers is a worldview like anyone else.
Anyways, thanks for reading and commenting!
Hi student,
I read that Rick Ross thread and, like I wrote to Zentient, they got some paranoid, over-reactive people over there. I want nothing to do with the ad hominem attacks against Katie. I think she’s a fine person, despite disagreeing with her stark view of reality.
I didn’t say Joko says to dismantle your positive thoughts. We need to be able to check out the reality of ALL our thoughts. When we see a thought and label it as positive, it usually is about being satisfied that things are the way we want them or attaching to hope that things will turn out the way we want them in the future. It’s all about me. When things are the way we want them, they are certain to change. We are powerless to guarantee our future, or how things will be.
You said, “The problem IS negative thoughts which create stress. If we all had positive thoughts all the time, there would be no need for any of this spiritual stuff. ” That’s magical thinking. Based on that, you also believe “The Secret” is great practice. You should also check out this teaching.
You said, “The problem is people having negative thoughts and suffering because of them.” Again, negative thoughts are like positive thoughts in that they are all about me. Every time you say a positive affirmation, you are perpetuating a dualistic internal struggle. I want/I don’t want, good/bad, happy/sad, on and on.
It’s a good habit to get into examining ALL our thoughts, pondering is that true, how do I know it’s true? Maybe we have to live with “I don’t know”, and simply pay attention to what life is asking of us in the moment.
I didn’t read all of that website yet, but the part about those seminars of katies sound like a big rip-off to me. My freind tried to get me to go to one of those expensive seminars and I refused to go. I think its a rip-off, that’s what I think.
also, last year in psychology we did a section on hypnosis, and from what I have read, katie is doing a type of hypnosis on people. We learned in the course how to do a type of talking hypnosis just by talking to people. so I don’t know everything yet. I have a lotof questions. I am worried about my friend too, she mentions byron katie it seems every 5 minutes, its really weird.
I agree, a big rip-off! $5,000. That’s crazy.
Sounds like your friend is a Katie-addict!
That’s not healthy.
It shows how desperate we all are for relief from our suffering and stress.
May we all find peace and happiness!
Thank you for having this blog, and allowing me to post. I looked up the words of Joko, quoted below from Everyday Zen. It helped me to understand why teachers like Byron Katie may be perpetuating suffering and confusion.
Joko says
“A third way of practice (which I view as poor) is to substitute a positive for a negative thought. For example: If we are angry we substitute a loving thought. Now this changed conditioning may make us feel better. But it doesn’t stand up well to the pressures of life. And to substitute one conditioning for another is to miss the point of practice. The point is not that a positive emotion is better than a negative one, but that ALL thoughts and emotions are impermanent, changing, or (in Buddhist terms) empty. They have no reality whatsoever. Our only freedom is in knowing, from years of observation and experiencing, that all personally centered thoughts and emotions (and the actions born of them) are empty. They are empty; but if they are not seen as empty then can be harmful When realize this we can abandon them. When we do, very naturally we enter the space of wonder.”
Hi Zentient,
You’re welcome, and it’s nice to receive comments!
I’d have to disagree though if you’re implying that BK tells us to substitute thoughts. Her message is really radical — it’s basically, our life is nothing but thought. Joko would say the same thing, they just have a slightly different emphasis.
As for Joko’s critique of the “third way of practice”… well, it’s what the Buddha actually taught! My guess is that he taught it for those who cannot handle the constant observing of thought (it’s a tough practice!) It’s simply easier to think positive thoughts and it brings you good feelings AND.. if you believe in rebirth, it makes perfect sense, as you can acquire a decent rebirth next time around.
Joko doesn’t teach in consideration of rebirth, therefore she doesn’t care about creating “positive merit.” At least, I’ve never heard her talk about it.
Best wishes.
Hi there,
thanks for writing this article – I’ve been using the work for a few years now, still do, and on one hand can often be concerned about where “I” am going with this, on the other hand I am now a less angry person.
you make some interesting points – and one thing i like to do is separate out Byron Katie ‘the person’ and the inquiry process called ‘the work’.
from there, i find it isn’t about looking to what she does or doesn’t say – or rather, I don’t have to agree with what she says – however, I also don’t have to believe she shouldn’t think like that.
in relation to your article, i’m not sure how labelling something as evil helps to stop it happening – i can’t say what i’d do, but my own experience has been that when the mind-labelling reduces my ability to see things more clearly increases, including dangers, i also notice that when i care less about my personal self i’m more available for others.
my own understanding is that any concept is limiting and can get in the way – so even “God is what is” is limiting – and BK has mentioned this, saying that ultimately even this isn’t true.
The same would go for “there is no reality”.
This may touch on the comment made regarding only question negative thoughts, not positive ones – ultimately, it seems to me that any attachment to a thought can cause suffering in one scenario and not in another – so questioning the negative ones is just a way of working through them – they’ll all come up anyway
what i find best is simply applying the approach to whatever stressful thoughts I have, whether they are about byron katie, people that do the work, people on the Rick Ross forum, whoever and whatever.
ultimately, i can’t ever know if anyone else does the work, or even if that is best for anyone else to do it – hell, byron katie may be a complete fraud and raking the money in – well, if she is, that’s her business and her conscience will have to sit with that.
my business is inquiring when a stressful thought comes along.
i’m not sure if this comment (in it’s entirety) makes sense to me, let alone anyone else, so i’ll leave it at that
once again, good work with this article. i doubt I’ll visit your site again to see your response (just passing on through), so if there’s anything you want to share directly, happy to receive it through email.
with thanks,
Jon
Hello and thankyou for your insights.
I have been studying BK the person and her “Work” for several months.
I have concluded that her 4 question process is best applied to the negative, life limiting opinions we hold about ourselves. Beyond that, I believe, could cause negative results.
It was not long after I began research that I began to wonder if these questions would prove to be more harmful then helpful to those who have suffered abuse, be it sexual, verbal, or physical.
I have since found commentary on the web that provides painful testimony to that.
I am often surprized by how many followers feel they must embrace BK and ‘the work’ completley and without question. No matter how many red flags or inner unsettledness they experience.
That is a dangerous place to be in.
I have had a much better experience in not just finding but living in a sustained state of peace and joy through the book by Dr James B. Richards entitled ‘How To Stop The Pain”. A profoundly insightful and life view altering read.
Thanks again for your very well written commentary. Because of it my study of BK and the work has drawen to a close.
To all who are currently researching BK, take the meat you need and spit out the bones, and move on.
Shalom
Hi Josesiem…
I Stumbled on your site while reading some other sites that claim Byron Katie as a growing cult. I’d thought I’d share some thoughts about some of the things talked about here.
In the past, I had an on/off relationship with BK too. At first, she came as a revelation. Then, for a great while, I got stuck with the THOUGHT that I needed a more comprehensive understanding of this whole ‘enlightenment’ business, and so started to seek out other teachers, such as Eckhart Tolle and others.
To cut a long story short, a while back (after many years of leaving BK on the shelf), after seeing a load of YouTube videos of BK, her words connected in a way that they had never before, and once again, they became a revelation. Along with Eckhart Tolle, BK has been most helpful to me in slowing down the mind and exposing the illusion of our thoughts.
BK’s interest is simply in ending the suffering of the inquirer. It’s not to debate the rights and wrongs of this world and how we can make it better; it’s simply about finding your own peace in it. It doesn’t negate any action or function that you may perform. You could be a soldier ordered to kill the ‘enemy’ and defend your country and be awakened to that duty. Or perhaps you’re the General who gives the command to your soldiers. To THINK the THOUGHT that the awakened individual becomes all passive and weak and a pushover is just a projection on your part. As BK might say, can you really know that’s true? The consequence of that is that you close your mind now to the value of what you once found valuable. Like I said above, the mind has a habit of wanting to move to the next thing. It says something like, “yeah, BK makes some good points, but she doesn’t understand real Zen or Buddhism. I need to supplement her stuff with…”…and so on. And then you move on. Do you really need to understand all that? Can you absolutely know that you need to understand all that?
About the example of the Nazi throwing a baby into a flaming pit. That is indeed God. How can it not be God, if God is ALL? God is Hitler and Mother Teresa. God is nothing more than reality. What BK is saying there, is, if you were the witness of that act, you can either fully accept that this has happened in reality and come to terms with it, or you can mentally deny it happening and feel the crushing suffering of that. What is meant by to deny it happening? You cannot accept what has happened because it was too horrendous. You mentally say things like ‘this can’t be’, ‘this is not happening’, ‘how can God allow these things to happen?’ (but it HAS happened). You want what was done to be undone (how can it be undone?)…and so on. By not fully embracing what has happened and moving forward, you get stuck in the past, replaying those horrifying images over and over again, perhaps 40 years later and beyond, all the while, carrying the burden and pain of those images (which are just thoughts). The physical horror has long ended, but the mental trauma lingers still. That is the illusion of thought that BK is trying to end.
Why is BK so popular? For the simple reason that she has helped many people free THEMSELVES (not other people) from years of mental suffering. Sure, I’m happy if you claim to be free, but I’m happier still when I’M free. I get to taste freedom. When once there was pain, darkness and stress that has now been replaced by lightness, playfulness and peace, wouldn’t you be grateful? It’s not about saving the world. Forget about saving the world. How can the world be saved when its constituent parts (you and me) are in (mental) suffering and conflict? Where is the world if it’s not you and me? Can you physically point a finger at the world and say that bit needs changing? Only people need changing – from a state of confusion and suffering, from where we do crazy things, to a state of total peace within ourselves, from which love flows.
By the way, what does it mean to change the world? Is it not to change the happiness of individual people, you, me and the next person? Happiness is when we no longer suffer mentally, when we are at peace within ourselves. Yes, we need to feed the starving and lift people out of poverty (and awakening doesn’t exclude any activity to help in whatever way), but even in a world of plenty as like in the West, we just create new forms of suffering (5 yr olds for therapy anyone?). So ultimately, it is the mental suffering of the individual that must be addressed. In that respect, BK can help you. That was ever her only claim in the first place. Not even that, she says that she helps YOU help yourself.
All the best!….
If critics of Byron Katie will take a look at the work of neuroscientist Jill Bolte Taylor, I believe what Katie is doing might seem less sinister. In the midst of a massive stroke, Jill found that she felt completely at ease, so much so, that she nearly failed to call for help. When she recovered she realized that the two hemispheres of her brain had disengaged. She explains that our right brain is always present and aware and not troubled by adverse circumstances. The left brain calculates good and evil, loss and gain.
I’ve never met Byron Katie and don’t feel any need to do so. I do the work when I am angry or feeling stressed. The work shifts dominance from the left brain to the right so we can continue to function even in the face of difficult circumstances. It creates a sense of psychological space so you don’t end up doing evil yourself.
She’s not a nazi sympathizer.
One note of clarification that I think is important. I am new to “the work”, and I think what your describing as “negative thoughts” would be better described as “the thoughts that are not working for us.”
I remember hearing her say that those are the thoughts we question. I don’t ever recall her saying “negative thoughts.” Like say I start thinking about doing my taxes. I could call that negative and then use the work to put myself into denial over me having to pay my taxes because thinking about it makes me feel “negative.” However, its HOW I think about taxes that should be questioned. Because ignoring doing them wont work for me, and viewing taxes as a horrible, stressful thing does not work for me either.
The same goes for war. If it was WWII again, would not getting involved in fighting the nazi’s work for us? I don’t think so because that would involve denying the suffering of millions. Protecting the innocent works for me.
This is how I see it. We only question the thoughts that are NOT working for us. So far I don’t see any holes in it. Perhaps she does take it a bit too far… I’m actually hoping to find some real life success stories from people who have done the work a lot. But so far, I feel much lighter from just doing it on a few stressful areas of my life.
zach,
I find the work works well for me. I was distressed from the thought that my work as a special ed teacher was too hard for me. I’m near 60 and I’m on my feet and very actively involved with hyperactive kids all day. The turn around was that my work isn’t too hard. It really isn’t. The thought that it is hard is hard.
Mostly I like what Byron Katie says. Although in my opinion she has said some stupid things.
She had a newsletter for graduates of the school of which I was one. One of the things that got my back up was comments about animals suffering. I can’t recall it all but it was something like – can you really know that the animal is suffering. I found this deplorable and the funny thing about it is, is that I eat meat and don’t generally think about animals suffering.
Another one after the tidal wave in the Indian Ocean that I was told about was “It decreases the surplus population” this from a women who wept after the Louisiana hurricane.
My biggest bitch is that all this is for people with money, those that don’t have it aren’t going too get it.
I disagree with her view that everything is perfect. However I do believe my suffering does nothing and even makes it harder too make sane decisions.
All this said I still found the school and the work a valuable experience. I still use it. One spiritual teacher once said “just the words, not the person, because they may have their trips too”. Asking anyone is this screwed up world too be perfect is a bit much. We all do the best we can, so on that account I give Katie a break.
If it helps you let go of a traumatic event and carry on with life so much the better. If you fear it makes people cold and uncaring they probably already are. People bitch and complain and blame and do little that is constructive except feed themselves anger and powerlessness.
One thing I like to clear up is we live now, not in the past and not in the future, so the only place too act from is the present. The present is our experience and the past is memory and the future apprehension or hope based on what we believe might happen.
What I believe byron katie does is try too get people too accept what has happned not what is about too happen. The past is unchangeable and as such you can say anything you want about it and as Katie says you loose just 100% of the time. So if you really give a damn do something, get of your chair and walk your talk. So many people just want too be important and talk. and from what i understand she doesn’t advocate people not doing something constructive.
I think the work can be used in any manner and if you want too justify screwing your employees out of a raise the work can be used too that end although I very much doubt it will give you peace as too really work what is required is one’s integrity and honesty with oneself.
Steven
I finished reading all the posts. On non duality, who cares, the reality is do I love myself and can I love the world dual or not. And forget the world can i love the person in front of me and if not why not. The other question is a projection of a baby suffering as it is thrown into a pit. The baby probably died before without any consciousness knowledge of what happened. As for God i don’t believe in God, Dog maybe that be a better word. The world is bullshit from one end too the other. The issue is that we will all die. We cling too life because we are afraid of the unknown. A man that turned me on too all this enlightenment stuff said that we have too live as if we were already dead, that is nothing too loose, nothing too protect and everything too give. I ain’t there yet. I believe in experiencing things fully and I ain’t very good at that either although I keep trying.
Thanks for all the comments. Steven
Hey Joe,
It seems like a lot of what you’re saying is that understandings such as non-duality are some sort of philosophy to be understood by the mind, yet what’s being suggested is to give up all beliefs one way or another and see what remains. On the “other side” is the authentic awakening which shows us the truth that can never be fully understood by the mind.
I’m pretty new to BK, having only picked up one of her books for the first time today, but it seems that she talks about the power of not knowing and not trying to figure it out, which is ironically the way understanding and realization spontaneously happens on its own.
Mental masturbation can be a fun game, and I catch myself doing that at times as well, but it’s not going to lead one to truth. The Buddha, Ramana, Nisargadatta, Eckhart, BK… they didn’t sit around and think and think and think to figure things out. Realization itself happened. Something beyond the mind truly awakened.
That said, your concerns about Muslims spreading and so forth are still totally understandable.
There’s this quote I really like, I think it was by Ram Dass, but forgive me if I misattribute the author: Everything is perfect, including our desire to change what is.
Beyond the dualistic realm of good and bad, right and wrong, there is only Oneness. In much the same way that there isn’t darkness, there is simply the blocking of light, resistance of light. Fear doesn’t exist. It’s only resistance to Love. So from this perspective, there is a sense of openness to Love and resistance to Love which stems from a place of Oneness, rather than a dualistic struggle of good and evil.
Surrendering to what is doesn’t mean being a passive push-over. It’s about not resisting to what is and thus being fully open to ANY possibility including both doing nothing as well as actively putting an end to aggression. All possibilities are available.
I don’t know BK in person, but I’ve read a few of her books. The Work is an astonishing method, and BK should be given credit for it, since it IS helpful to many people, including me. But we must never forget that we are ourselves responsible for our actions, and we are ourselves responsible for what we believe in! We must NEVER accept anyone as a personal “guru” and put his advice or ideas above our own, following them without questioning! Nobody can be a guru to anyone but himself, even if he or she claims to be one! Probably not even Jesus knew every answer to every situation and every human problem! Criticizing BK for her misconducts and ignorances may be legitimate — but first of all we must see to it that we ourselves take responsibility for our lives and our own personal integrity! I personally find it dangerous to seek out circumstances of public “hearings”, standing before a “guru” who would – in the short time available – comment my problems and help me out of my miseries. This MAY work, but all of the attendants must be aware of the dangers of such situations: The energy of the audience is often focused on and used by the guru, who must him- or herself be absolutely free of selfish interests to not misuse his or her role in such a setting! I am quite sure that BK is not really aware of her role here, and, certainly, she is not infallible! We are all human, and we make mistakes. It is quite easy for a seeker in such a public setting to fall prey to the hypnotic nature of the advice given! Shattering one’s core beliefs (that often arise from deep personal fears!) is one thing … the lasting nature of such an experience is quite doubtful, though! You may get a glimpse of a new freedom in such moments and may use this feeling as kind of an inner lighthouse to follow, but to truly confront oneself with one’s fears to release them and dependent core beliefs takes more time, openness, willingness and work than 15 minutes of guru-advice!
Hi People,
I have read all of this blog and am grateful for a critical page on Byron Katie, though I wonder if the participants who started it a few months are still reading it. I am also grateful for this blog being made in a way so it is easy to join in.
I am also somewhat doubtful about Byron Katie – the whole thing sounds too good to be true, her website is so smarth and smooth …. on the whole net I can find only the same kind of text about her, all very smooth, superficial, positive. Often exactly the same words. Except for the one, actually mislead, criticism that she encourages people letting themselfes be abused … of course she does not. But is really everybody understanding this? Why is there not more protest? Except for the greatly deluded Rick Ross thread no protest. I have been searching the internet all day now, for more differenciated information, for critics. Not found much.
Why does the school cost so much money? For someone, who wants to awaken the world to the truth as fast as possible, as she claims, is this the logical strategy? well it actually could be, because the rich people tend to be more influencial, but only when the resulting income is used for spreading the work into even more places for free. Now Katie mentions prisons and hospitals, but I cannot find proof of big projects on the internet. Unlike the enlightened Amma, for example, who collects big money but documents also many help projects. Does any one of you who have been to the school know how Katie uses the income from this?
I am wondering whether to attend this school, but am not sure, because of the huge investment involved. For self help purposes I can do the work by sheet. Now if Katie really is enlightened (and committed like an boddhisattva, then she would not hoard money) and she can actually take us there, it would be reasonable to spend the last penny on it. So I wonder…. and wonder….
Would be faster than 30 Years of Zazen or other tedious buddhist practices, don´t you think? Are you not tempted by this idea?
This here is my main personal concern and curiosity about this issue, but below I wrote some comments about other issues which have been raised in this blog.
I know the work for 2 months now, but think I understand it. It is not really new – belief questioning formats already exist in cognitive therapie, TA, AA12steps, NLP and maybe more- the way Katie does it still seems new and absolutely brilliant to me because she leads people confidently and very fast into radical changes. The way she asks from her own personal position is irresistable. Someone like Aaron Beck (a founder of cognitive therapy) seemed much easier to resist. I have seen him on stage.
Now maybe the interesting and different ingredient here is that Katie seems to be what is called “enlightened” or “awakened” (Becomes very clear in the tao-Book about Katies Experience). For me she does not seem to be stuck in the absolute view, Josesiem, because she can talk normally to people, although her experience at the same time seems to be, as she says, if I understood that correctly, that nothing exists and that she is the universe, everything in it, or god, or nothing, or whatever name given for the nameless experience.
By the way: For me it fits also Charlotte Yoko Beck´s view. I remember Yoko in her book emphasizes that we be critical about “how good we are”. But Katie does that, too. The “criticizing your neighbour” turnaround does exactly this: we question also beliefs about how we thought about how good we were.
And yes, of course: Loving what is does of course soetimes mean to intervene in such a way as to stop or change the course of events. It just means to not waste energy in whining about things that cannot be changed.
So, anyway, now I´ve written so much. It was nice to participate in this thoughtful, differenciated blog and I am very curious about any answers from you.
Karin
Hi,
I ´d like to take back what I said about the Rick Ross thread being deluded. I had based that on following a conversation there for a few pages, where people who had not really understood BK even remotely, criticized her in very aggressive manner and people correcting these distortions were asked to leave the Forum.
But meanwhile, leafing through more heaps of RickRoss posts, I found some very helpful comments there. So it is a useful Forum, especially in an otherwise quite uncritical Internet, as it seems.
Hi Karin,
Thanks for your comments.
As I said before, overall BK’s method works wonderful. I’ve used it many times to clear confusion.
My overall concern is extending her method of deconstruction into a philosophical view where nothing exists other than thought. It’s an assumption which cannot be verified.
Yes, the internet is full of garbage! Rick Ross forum is full of hatred and people suspicious of everything!
This has been helpful to read through.
Like the originator of this site I have respect for the Work, and understand the usefulness of examining stressful thoughts. Zazen, albeit a more timely process, tends to generate a similar sense of acceptance in the moment as doing the Work.
As one teaching mentioned, “Zazen is a sane practice.”
My experience with the Work is also one of sanity.
Where I notice a contradiction is in gloming onto BK as a person. Sure, she has a grandmother tough love persona that can be enticing, but she croaks like the rest of us.
Whatever she is experiencing in her consciousness is a secret I will never know. And to be honest, I don’t care.
The Work tends to do that trick with the stressful thoughts, and has lead to some great extended periods of peacefulness in my life.
It has been helpful to spend the morning researching critiques of BK, if only to help me see I was beginning to get mesmerized by her persona.
Rock on in the free mind world!
janaki tells her story:http://janakisstory.wordpress.com/
this is worth taking a look at if you are interested one way or another in Byron Katie.
I find Byron Katie’s approach to be useful sometimes, but I also read it after I was exposed to Albert Ellis’ REBT and Edelstein’s exposition of it in _Three_Minute_Therapy_.
The basic idea being that we make ourselves upset because we want/insist things to be other than they are, others to be other than they are, and/or ourselves to other than we are and that these are irrational beliefs that need to be disputed. So her version was not quite so ground-breaking to me.
However, with her approach there seemed to be more danger of becoming so copacetic with what-is that you don’t then make choices to limit future injustice. Ellis makes it very clear that the problem is not thinking that something is ethically wrong/immoral/were preferably have not happened, but the extreme awfullizing of it (it SHOULDN’T have happened, it MUST not happen) that creates such strong negative emotions that we can’t function properly. It’s a turning down (not off) of emotions so that you can be more effective (at, say, acting to prevent further injustice/harm).
BK doesn’t make this as clear. Yes, she on one hand says things similar to, if you need to go to the doctor, you go to the doctor. However, in her book where she discusses her blindness, she states she was so happy with it, indeed, so joyful about it, that she would have gladly stayed that way and had no desire to do anything about it. It was her husband who researched treatment and got her to a doctor. My thought — what if was her child who had the disease and she was a single parent? Would she have failed to research it and get treatment? If so, why didn’t she do so for herself? If it was because her husband was already working on it, then that is the reason she had no desire to do anything about it herself and her book is untruthful about the reason.
See also the comment above about Jill Bolt Taylor who nearly failed to call for help when she needed it.
I think it is important to live a life not just of personal happiness, but justice. I’d rather be a little unhappy some of the time and leave the world in more just place when I leave, than super-happy and have no impact. So when applying techniques like these (REBT, BK questions, etc) I do ask myself if the good feelings I get are making me more or less likely to take effective action (not just: are they making me feel better). The answer isn’t always the same (sometimes the negative emotions hinder, and sometimes they don’t; sometimes positive emotions help, and sometimes they don’t).
Here is a link to an extensive review of the Byron Katie School For The Work March ‘09
http://guruphiliac.lefora.com/2009/03/23/byron-katies-school-for-the-work-march-09/
These arguements are all pointless. Because of one fact, there is no person called Byron Katie, she is wordless awareness in expression, its all a story, did any of you even get the basis of the work? the “is it true”? is a gate wasy to the silence, pointless arguements over nothing at all.
Hi James, Your comment proves all the aforementioned criticisms of the work! Thanks for the illustration.
And what’s even more funny is while calling the arguments pointless, you added one of your own! Brilliant.
This nondual stuff really creates some disasters of people, yes “people”, there are people and you do exist, regardless of how bad you want to extinquish your self and claim the nondual prize of “nobody home.”
beautiful reply!…
I am so glad to find a compelling conversation about thoughts and ideas of the work and the school for the work.
I personally had used the work for about a year, until I realized, I was continually doing the work on suffering thoughts over and over… I continue to share it with my clients and introduce it as a trick. (Tricks are not negative, they are just quick ways to help the mind end suffering, though do not prove lasting results without positive action.)
For the same reason I left AA years ago, the work is similar in that people are encouraged to stick with it forever, or they receive a sense of shunning. AA’s motto is “jails, institutions and death” Katie’s followers seems to say to those who argue that you are “fighting reality” or “fighting what is.”
The experience I have had with those who have gone to the school is a sense of secrecy… and I never knew why. If it is joyous, share it with the world, right? They seem to have a “I know what you do not” energy about them. My thoughts have been, “It’s only 4 questions. It’s not hard to understand, what am I missing?”
Rick Ross’ sharing of the school made me feel sad. Maybe that is what I was missing… what had happened to these people while at the school. Cult, fraternity or abusive family; whatever you want to call it… anything that asks you to keep secrets, is going to create separatism and suffering in your spirit.
If the tool you are using to end the suffering does not truly end it permanently and encourages you to add their own (Bill W. or Byron Katie’s) philosophy onto your personal authentic journey for the long term, you will stray from walking your own path.
The peace treaty, a new tool I created when I realized something was missing about the work, is all about moving forward on YOUR OWN JOURNEY. Use the tool, end the suffering of resistance, and move on and do what you would love to do and live your life with joy. No dogma to hold on to except, the affirmation you write in your own words.
I encourage my clients, friends and family all to do what is right in their own heart, to trust and listen to their own guidance. Byron Katie is doing that for herself.
We also need to do the same.
smiles and blessings,
Rain
It would clearly be a really bad idea to become a follower of Byron Katie. Nor is it particularly helpful to dissect her personality or her philosophical views. The question is whether or not “the work” is useful. Josiem worries “how we will react in the face of evil if we don’t see it as evil.” That was certainly a problem for Europe’s Jewish population who failed to recognize their danger. However, the bigger problem for everyone in the world were the Nazi’s who projected evil where there was none.
If we choose to engage in the work, we have the opportunity to see what we are projecting on to the world. When I am really upset with another person or a situation, I find that the most helpful thing I can do is to ask myself if it is true. I always answer that of course it is because if feels so true. But when I ask if I can absolutely know that it is true or not, I create some psychological space in which I can act without attacking someone else. The Work, for me anyway, is a practical tool and not a philosophical one.
It’s a practical tool, but for most people it comes with philosophical baggage. Tools don’t exist without presuppositions. Ideas have consequences. I’d agree the work, works extremely well… and I’d also say that the presuppositions (whatever is happening now is God’s will or all the evil we see is not really evil, it’s our deluded ideas and therefore there’s really nothing to do about it) are probably unhelpful if not damaging to many people.
Yes, we all have philosophical as well as experiential baggage that we bring to any situation. Here is mine. Back around 1980, I was involved in an organization called The Center for Feeling Therapy, a spinoff from the Primal Institute, that was to be a therapeutic community. Its story is well told by Carol Ann Mithers in her book, Therapy Gone Mad. It inevitably, and quickly evolved into a cult with rigid rules. Fittingly, it fell apart on the evening that Ronald Reagan was elected president. One of the therapists actually had the balls to get up in front of the assembled members of the community, basically a lynch mob at this point, and argue that we all knew and colluded in the situation. It was not a teachable moment but he was right. It was a traumatic and liberating time. It is a great gift to understand the lengths to which you’ve gone in the service of self deception. We all did it because we wanted to believe that we were on the cutting edge of an imagined social change- not the Reagan Revolution for sure. And we did it because each of us lacked the courage to face life without a philosophical prop.
Byron Katie is clearly an imaginative and creative woman possessed of a charismatic personality. The Work, it seems, has been seriously oversold. She has clearly gotten tremendous encouragement to play the role of the guru and pretend that she is beyond all foolish concern with little notions like good and evil. Their is, as they say, a seeker born every minute who will demand that he be spoon fed the most outrageous bullshit you might imagine, and pay good money to eat it up.
Ultimately, there is no such thing as good or evil but the game of like is played as if there is. All I know to do is play as hard as I can and hopefully, when the time comes, I’ll leave the field gracefully.
Man, how can intelligent people like James believe in such obvious contradictions?
If you say “It’s all a story” like he said, then the fact that “It’s all a story” is also a Story, and thus can’t be acknowledged as something that’s true to everyone.
It’s just like when you say “There’s no Truth”, you’re in reality saying “It’s true that there’s no truth”. I’ve noticed a lot of such inconsistencies in BK’s work.
But I’ve come here to agree with most people, the Work is a great tool, and I’m grateful to have discovered it. Like Josesiem said, it’s probably better not to take it as philosophical baggage.
Thanks for this interesting discussion,
wish all the best to you.
I was looking a Joan Tollifson’s site and found a link to this guy, William Samuel, who was writing from the 50’s to the 80’s when he died. This particular essay- Zen Trap- anticipated the trouble that we’d be having.
http://www.williamsamuel.com/06-10-09-cw-zentrap.htm
I’m a psychotherapist and have been practicing buddhism this way and that for a lot of years. KB’s little 4-step can be a wonderful tool – it’s really in the tradition of cognitive therapy, radicalized by some non-dualistic perspective. I say perspective because, as someone up there notes, she’s an absolutist (and absolutism has a funny way of slithering into nilhilism), and that doesn’t hold philosophical or ethical water. It’s terrific for busting blind judgements and real projections and painful false beliefs. And I now would stop there.
Because it’s dangerous. It might be helpful for an abused person to turn around “He shouldn’t have raped me” and discover “I shouldn’t rape myself (every time i get hooked into obsessive and painful replays)”, but that’s slippery and had better be pretty carefully worked. And “He should have raped me” is a notion that only works at a level where no one needs any 4 step anyway.
I had a horribly childhood-abused PTSD client who spontaneously declared one day, “I don’t want to do the victim thing any more. I wouldn’t be who I am, and I wouldn’t know what I know if it hadn’t happened. It’s incredible. I feel wonderful, it’s somehow just this incredible, insane totally valuable moment of my very own life.” That held. She really got a lot of release with that insight. And I asked her later what she’d do if she came across a man raping a child now. “I’d try to blow his brains out”, said she. So that’s no hesitation, anyway.
It’s also story-bound, that business of finding a way to incorporate suffering into your narrative. Limited, relative. But Katie’s not Nagarjuna, either. I’ve settled (uneasily) with the formulation of an ultimate and a relative reality that appears in some Buddhist schools… Might be framed as “Nothing is inherently and objectively real, it’s a dream, a flash of lightning, a dewdrop, etc. — but hey, tie your horse to a tree.” In this vast seamless perfection it’s also not OK to throw a baby into a flaming pit.
KB covers this problem of right judgement, discernment, discrimination, when she talks about not going into the yard of a biting dog. Reckon one might also shoot that dog if it’s a Nazi running off with baby. But there’s a problem with the biting dog being perfect and perfectly doing its perfect job over in the relative real, which she has to deny. She’s stuck. And she’s charismatic and adored and I believe absolutely sincere, and the money is rolling in, and teachers like this have a wretched tendency to gradually go narcissistic and mad. The stories rolling in now are achingly familiar. Sigh.
In the Bardo realm blissful heaven’s at the top, but you don’t get to stay there, you get blissed and blind and tumble back into hell, which is utter paranoia. This is what happened to Osho I think, and maybe Trungpa. It’s my favorite sad joke – “too much emptiness!” In psychological terms it’s the return of the repressed.
As someone said, it’s a terrific trick and genuinely liberating in one sense. But be careful.
My favorite thing Trungpa said is “disappointment is your greatest friend.” I puzzled over it for years and decided he simply meant that it protects us from arrogance.
Ok…interesting debate, Now listen, I know the work for about 4 years, this IS might be an effective guide to end suffer of all kind, but, what i didn’t like at katie is that she says that thoughts are the cause for all the suffer in the world for evey humen- that’s a lie, i am sure, because my most suffer did not came from thoughts alone, it comes from a lack of good function in my body, headaches, many kinds of physical pain, the work is just worthless when i tried to atteck physical references at my body, the work is about dealing with thought and beliefs, which can change the mood drastically if your mind will accept the turn around, but to say it will work on everyhumen? every kind of physical pain ? {she said “people don’t know physical pain is always a story of the past” -well of course it is, but when i have an astma attack lets see her doing the work while i am screaming for morphine.}- this is just a LIE to say so, many people who are doing the work and do not procced well feel guilt and disappointment for not experience the “easiest enlightment” katie offered.
To sum up, this is a good tool, NOT FOR ANYONE AND ANY CASE- and she had to say that as well, because this is the true about the work.
Katie encourages us to question our thoughts. So why not question our thoughts about HER? About spiritual teachers and spirituality?
Are you a spiritual junkie? Do you jump from one spiritual teacher to another? When will that end? Will you be doing the same thing all your life? Who are these people that you admire (worship)? Are they really helping?
Have you ever noticed that when you encounter a new teacher, it’s a revelation? Then the zap gradually wanes. It’s like a caffeine hit or something. I think that eventually you find that there are no new teachers, no new revelations they can give you. The revelations become internal – you have to go out on your own.
These are things I’m asking myself. I’ve certainly displayed these behaviours. I feel a time is coming for me to “kill the Buddha”. What does that mean? That everything they say is meaningless – is more to attach to.
Don’t attach too much to these comments!
I could be wrong but I think that our humanity (aka imperfections) are what tether us to this existence. If BK where not human she would not be here to help us. Complaining that she is ‘human’ is immature. How different is this from blasting ones parents for not being ‘perfect’? Perfection is an idea, a concept that was invented by man and in my humble opinion, a tool that’s too often used to generate guilt in oneself or project it elsewhere. I personally see nothing scary or negative about the idea of radically accepting ‘what is’ from the standpoint that all is exactly as it should be. Only a seriously confused person would use this as an excuse to standby while someone is harmed and do nothing or actually harm someone themselves. I never for one second thought that BC condoned cruelty in any way shape or form. I do not think BK is cold or uncaring. On the contrary I think she teaches detachment with love, compassion and forgiveness. She urges us to focus on ourselves and cease self-torture which can only be done when one accepts responsiblity for ones thoughts, actions and destructive patterns.
It has been my experience that many are addicted to self-pity. Anyone that has an investment in victim mentality is going to poke holes or attack any form of teaching that attempts to correct it. Saying that BK’s work hurts people is stating that these individuals are not responsible for their interpretations. Maybe we should pass a law that warning labels should be stuck on all self-help books that state that the author is not perfect, therefore the contents of the book probably isn’t and that the reader is responsible for sorting this out. What BK writes or says is only as ‘helpful’ or ‘destructive’ as the individuals interpretation of it.